Reflections

A BRIEF WORD

New Idea Engine

25/12/9

R.M. Ackley

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The other day we visited with Bill Starkey over at Star bolt Engine Supplies. Many of you have met Bill, and as you all know, he is intensely interested in our hobby. Our visit touched on many points, but one stands out-the problems of paint colors.

We probably get more requests for correct color schemes than on any other point. Now you are probably wondering where all this is going. Well, we'll tell you. Just by coincidence, we have been corresponding with Alden Wolters at Phillipsburg, Kansas. Alden has been in the paint business for years, and also shares a love of old engines. He also shares many of the same ideas as Bill Starkey and ye olde Reflector regarding the exact color shades for a certain engine. We quote herewith some of Alden's comments:

'Cross references between paint manufacturers are almost impossible to find....The first thing a person must remember and keep in mind when they want to paint something is this-Paint standards of 50 or more years ago were not nearly so critical as they are today...In nearly all cases, today's color numbers are referred to as an approximate match. Even in the auto refinish business of today, it is not uncommon for the body shop to have to rely on many years of everyday experience to get the match they want, even though the vehicle might be only a couple of years old. Sometimes a little tinting is required, and this requires experience.'

Now before anyone gets busy with the pen or the phone to Alden, please bear in mind that we quote him because that is exactly our own point, and has been for some time now. So if you disagree with the above statement, kindly direct your replies to the Reflector. We only quote Mr. Wolters because he states our case very well. In other words, it is doubtful for many engines and tractors that their exact shade remained constant from year to year. We know this to be so with the Stover engine line, since some are a very deep Brewster green that is tinted with black and brown. Other Stover engines are a very light green that falls somewhere between John Deere Green and Oliver Green. We take the liberty of quoting Bill Starkey in this regard. He says, 'My advice is to get the color as close as possible to the original and go with what you can find.' With the conversion to acrylic enamels, the old DuPont Dulux numbers are fast approaching obsolescence. Therefore, we list below the following known conversions to DuPont Centari numbers. We understand that most paint dealers can also convert these numbers to PPG Ditzler numbers. One rule applies for converting Dulux to Centari numbers. Just drop the prefix from the Dulux number and you have the Centari number. For instance, Dulux 93-57704 gray becomes 57704-A in Centari. Here are the numbers we have so far:

Hercules

DuPont 7666 Green

Jaeger

DuPont 5183-DH Blue

Stover Red

DuPont 93-2564-H

Stover Green

DuPont 2015 Green

Stover Diesel

DuPont 93-57704 Gray

Rock Island Tr

F/A, 18-35

DuPont 6334

Waukesha Gray

Avery Tractor

(Frame, etc.)

Dulux 77161-DH

Associated

Dulux 93-2622-H Red

Dulux 93-2564-H Red

Waterloo Boy

Dulux 93-2564-H Red (Early)

Waterloo Boy

Dulux 93-5316 Green (Late)

NewWay

Dulux 93-30420-H Maroon

Dulux 93-29609-H Olive Green

Bulldog

Dulux 93-143-H Maroon

Rock Island

Dulux 93-24590 Brown (Engine)

Stickney

Dulux 93-81501 Dark Blue

Sandwich

Dulux 93-5800 Green

Nelson Bros.

Imron 2015 U Green

Fuller & Johnson

New Idea Green

Dulux 93-1317 Green

Witte

Dulux 93-5800 Green

Galloway

Centari 5027 Red

R&V

Dulux 93-5316 Green

Monitor

Dulux 93-538 Gray

Gade

Dulux 93-75874-H Green

(Old Style)

Dulux 93-660-H Red (New Style)

New Holland

Dulux 93-97813-M Dark Red

(Maroon)

Sattley

DuPont 7498 Green

IHC Gray

DuPont 27625

IHC Dk Grn

DuPont 93-84155

Adirondack Green

IHC Lt Grn

DuPont 93-29609-H

IHC Green

DuPont 7498 D Green

(For Type M)

IHC Blue

DuPont 24160

(There are at least two kinds of IHC Red. Most dealers have the lighter shade currently used, but we have not located the number for the darker shade used on Famous engines etc.)

J.I. Case

Power Red

G8156

Power Orange

44044

Power White

G8157

Yellow

7378

Gray

24938

Green

262

Cushman Vert.

93-62713-H Green

Cushman Cub

DuPont 7498 Green

(Skids)

DuPont 7410 Red

United Eng.

93-1863-H Red

IHC & Case Red

DuPont 674

We just got a copy of some PPG Ditzler colors. We do not have the color chips yet, so we're not at all sure if they will fit into your notions of the proper colors. At least they will give you a starting point.

Allis-Chalmers

Cream

8638

Earth Eqpt Yellow

81985

Lift Trk Yellow

81475

Yellow (Orangish)

81330

Yellow

82373

Persian Orange

60080

Same, reddish orng

60396

Orange

60691

Tractor & Eqpt Orng

60856

J.I. Case

Power Red

2235

Tractor Red

73252

Power Orange

60583

Tractor Orange

60432

Yellow

81518

Desert Sunset

81357

Tr. Ind Yellow

89962

Tractor Yellow

89952

Pwr Med Yel

(#B-174-21)

82308

Power White

8862

Gray

32984

Green

40249

Caterpillar

Hwy Yellow

81985

Cat Yel #2

81993

Cat Yel (lighter)

80021

Tractor Yellow

80979

New Yellow

82943

Tractor Beige

22393

Ford Tractor

lmpl Buff #1640 (1967)

22914

Tractor Buff

81339

Tractor Blue

M20J1639A, 1963-5

12809

Tractor Blue (lighter)

12720

Eqpt Dark Blue

12908

Tr Gray (196 5)

M20J1750A

32571

Gray

32663

Tractor Green

42940

New Tractor Yel

82291

Tractor Yel

8217

Lt Yellow

82549

New Tractor Red

71969

Red

2833

Lt. Red

72598

New Tractor Silver

33442

Beige

33186

Gravely Tractor

Beige

22136

Red

70186

Mustang Red (orange)

60524

International Harvester

Cub Cadet White

8665

Cub C. Yellow

81518

Farm Tractor Red

(IH-2150)

71310

Lt. Red #50

70019

Red

2833

Jacobson Power Lawnmower

Orange

60459

John Deere

Impl Green

40249

Impl Yellow

81512

Const Yellow

81518

Contractor Yel

81304

Industrial Yel

82295

Yellow (1967)

81687

Massey-Harris

Red

703

Yellow

80533

Minneapolis-Moline

Prairie Gold #2

60039

Orange

60740

Oliver

Clover White (1959)

8229

Eqpt Silver Poly

8960

Dark Green

40812

Green

40249

Indust. Yellow

81154

Yellow

81892

Cletrac Orange

60583

Ditzler colors are offered in a variety of vehicles, including acrylic, lacquer, and epoxy. Not all colors may be avail' able in all finishes, so check with your local dealer for specific information.

During the next few months we will be compiling a little vest pocket book. It will include the handy-dandy information so much in demand, including paint colors. We know that a lot of you folks have the paint numbers for a lot of engines and tractors not listed above. How about sharing this information with our readers while at the same time establishing some sort of color reference? Our data book will also include engine and tractor serial numbers wherever we can. Outside of the usual serial number lists, we recently came across some Silver King serial numbers. Is there anything out there that we might add? This might include names like Co-op, Cockshutt, and some of the smaller tractor companies. A final note. Send us your paint colors regardless of . the manufacturer. We don't care whether it comes from DuPont, Ditzler, N APA, or even Uncle Joe's Paint Company. If you do not have a number, then paint a sample on a piece of cardboard, let it dry, and send us the sample. From the above list, it is obvious that we have a long way to go.

The annual Farm Progress Show was held here at Iowa's Amana Colonies late in September. Numerous exhibitors showcased some vintage tractors. The Case-IH display was graced with some very nice early Case and IH tractors, while Goodyear featured an extensive display that even included an Oliver 80 Diesel. In visiting with the Goodyear people we learned that they presently make some of those hard-to-find tire sizes used on early tractors. They also might be pulling out some old tire molds of other special sizes. If there are some tire sizes and/or styles you would like to see back on the market, list your preferences and send this information to:

Dave Clawson, Marketing Manager, Goodyear Tire & Rubber Company 1144 East Market Street, Akron, OH 44316-0001, Many of our collectors would like to restore their tractors to original specs, but cannot find the tire size or tread style they need. Perhaps this approach might be of help. Your letter will be most helpful if you simply list the sizes and/or tread styles you would like to see available again. They will computerize the requests and go from there. Now to the first question:

25/12/1 Unidentified Engine Q. I have an engine bearing a resemblance to Associated or United, but it has no identifying marks other than part numbers. The main bearing caps are DDX, the hopper is DDC, and the base is DDB. Any information will be appreciated. Charles Balyeat, Balyeat Auto Supply/Carquest, Mathis, TX 78368.

A. From the numbers you list above, we would guess that your engine was built by Associated, although it may have been sold by United, or perhaps some other company. A photograph would be most helpful for identification purposes. Ye olde Reflector picked up a decent Polaroid camera at a 'hock shop' for $10. It has proven to be very helpful. The newer ones don't require any batteries-all this is built right into the film pack.

25/12/2 Sattley Engine Q. See the photo and two sketches of a Sattley engine. What shade of green was used? What decal was used? (See the sketch for its approximate size.) On the front face is a stenciled deed with the patent date, as per the sketch. Can anyone identify the exact wording, since I do not have enough remaining to tell. Any information will be greatly appreciated. George H. Griffith, RR J, Box 241 A, Genoa, IL 60135.

A. See the paint list above regarding colors. None of our Sattley catalogs illustrate this engine style, so perhaps some of our readers can help.

25/12/3 Red-E-Tractor Ralph Hendrickson, Box 55, Nineveh, NY 13813 sends two photos of a Red-E-Power Cultivator, Model 11B, 4 horsepower. On the side of the engine is an aluminum plate reading: Gladden Power Products Corp., Glen-dale 4, California. The serial number is illegible. He would appreciate any further information on this unit.

25/12/4 OMC Tractor Thanks to Mr. V. Kornmeyer, Box 153, Lucas, KS 67648 for sending the following letter and photos:

'I came across this tractor this past summer at a local show. It is the OMC tractor, built in Salina, Kansas. F.A. Ostenburg built his first tractor in 1938, and began production in 1939. About 12 tractors were made between 1939 and 1941- Production ended during the War, and resumed in 1945. It continued until the shop burned in 1954- During the second run, about fifty were built. The first group was built with a Chrysler engine and 4-speed transmission; the second group used a larger Chrysler and a 5-speed gear box. A Timken rear end was used, the same as in the Wards tractor and the first John Deere SP combines, the small ones with the 9 x 24 dual tires.

'The above information was provided by Wayne Whitely of Abilene, Kansas who owns this tractor. The Salina Journal of January 18, 1939 had a write up on the first of these tractors, noting that the first one was finished on December 24, 1938. It had a rating of about 12 drawbar horsepower, and a maximum road speed of 35 mph.'

25/12/5 LeRoi Engine Q. I have a LeRoi engine, Model RH-2, s/n 98265. It has a 31/8 x 4? inch bore and stroke. What is the horsepower, year made, and correct color? Also what is the correct magneto? Any information, contact Francis Kurds, 618 Anderson Rd., Niks, MI 49120.

25/12/6 IHC Famous Q. What is the year built of an IHC Famous s/n B2323E? See the photo. Ron Larson, 22251 Pillsbury Ave., Lakeville, MN 55044.

A. See the May, 1985 GEM for a complete listing.

25/12/7 Field Force Pump Co. Regarding my article in the May, 1990 GEM, I am still looking to hear from anyone on the Leader engines made by this company. Send me the numbers so that I can continue compiling them! I am also looking for information on the Friend engines made by Friend Mfg. Co., Gasport, New York and Myrick Machine Company, Olean, New York. Thanks for your help. Brian M. Lynch, RD 2, Box 134, Genesee, PA 16923.

25/12/8 Neward Engine Q. Having recently acquired a Neward engine, I need to know the proper color scheme. Also, there is the remains of a decal. Is it best to find someone who does silkscreen or a good sign painter? The number is B1644, but there is no nameplate or HP rating. The engine has a 4? x 6 inch bore and stroke. Any information at all will be greatly appreciated. Marvin L. Proctor, 1326 East Third, Pratt, KS 67124.

A. While we can't tell you much about the Neward engine except that it was sold by Montgomery-Ward, we can tell you that the problem of replacing the insignia is oftentimes very difficult. Many of the complicated decals (the Case Eagle is typical) were printed by offset press due to the number of colors involved, and in keeping all this in register. Thus, for a single pair of decals, a good artist might be the better way. Regardless of the method, we would suggest making several good color photos, plus some tracings before obliterating what is left. An artist is able to fill in the missing parts and you end up with a good representation of the original. This can get expensive, but making all the color separations for a silk screen decal doesn't come cheap either.

25/12/9 New Idea Engine Q. See the photo of a New Idea No. 2 Vari-Speed engine, s/n 2649. Can anyone tell the year built, and the correct magneto? Any information on this engine will be greatly appreciated, especially since I am new at restoring engines. R.M. Ackley, 322 Mansfield St., Chippewa Falls, WI 54729.

A. So far as we know the New Idea engine records are lost, but we would guess your engine was built in the mid-1930's. Perhaps a New Idea owner can tell you the make and model of the magneto used, since we have no application data showing it.

25/12/10 FBM Engine Q. See the photo of a Fairbanks-Morse Model IB-7 air-cooled engine. It was built for FBM by D.W. Onan & Son at Minneapolis. Any information will be appreciated in this regard. George Scharenberg, PO Box 34, Neosho Rapids, KS 66864.

A. Your engine is approximately of World War Two vintage. Apparently Onan built some engines specifically for FBM, as we have seen a couple like the one in your photo, and have also seen a two-cylinder opposed, air-cooled style, again built by Onan. We're going to be doing some further research with FBM, but so far we have not been able to determine a precise time frame or the extent of production for these engines.

25/12/11 Stover Engine Q. Recently I acquired a 1922 Stover 8 HP engine, s/n XI48245. It looks exactly like the 10, 12, and 15 HP engines on pages 40 and 41 of your Stover book. It does not look at all like the 8 HP KD on top of page 40. What does the X preceding the serial number mean? Are there any drawings available for this engine? Michael Unwin, RR 1, Zephyr, Ont., L0E 1T0 Canada.

A. The 'X' prefix is a style designator used by Stover for this particular engine. For example, the 2 HP vertical carried a YA prefix, and in the K-Series engines, the 10 HP model was given a KH designator. Your engine was later re-rated to 10 HP. Stover initially underrated their engines, and sometimes when they were rated upward the only change was on the nameplate. In other cases they speeded the engine up another 50 revs and ended up with a new horsepower rating.

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